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S19 Ep. 3

Skills, human capital and the energy transition

Energy transition

The energy transition is becoming one of the world’s big industrial trends. It’s being embraced by governments, the energy sector, households, industry and more. But it will only succeed if we have the skills and human capital to drive the energy transition forwards. In this episode explore these challenges and what’s being done to address them. In this episode, Jon Slowe and Sandra Trittin are joined by Charmaine Coutinho, Head of Client Training at LCP Delta; Phil Beach, CEO, Energy & Utility Skills and Leon Trippel, Initiator & Co-Lead, #OHKW - Ohne Hände keine Wende.

Episode transcript

[00:00:04.570] – Jon Slowe

Welcome to Talking New Energy, a podcast from LCP Delta. I'm Jon Slowe.


[00:00:09.370] – Sandra Trittin

And I'm Sandra Trittin and together we are exploring how the energy transition is unfolding across Europe through conversations with guests from the leading edge of the transition.


[00:00:21.810] – Jon Slowe

Hello and welcome to the episode. The energy transition will only succeed if we have the right skills and human capital to drive it forwards. And as we often highlight on this podcast, the energy of transition involves a really wide array of skills, from hard skills such as engineering all the way through to skills like behavioural science to engage customers. And it increasingly blends experiences as sectors like mobility and energy start to converge.


[00:00:53.490] – Sandra Trittin

Yeah, and so, we are going to explore today the challenges and what is being done about them with three people whose jobs are specifically focused in this area.


[00:01:04.310] – Jon Slowe

Sandra, with your experiences, I imagine you've felt some of these kinds of challenges directly in the last years.


[00:01:11.670] – Sandra Trittin

Yes, for sure. And many of the companies I'm working with do feel the same, right? And we will explore that also with our guests today. I think the main challenge is that there are not enough people to help us to work on the energy transition. And the second part is that the people are not rightly educated for what they are getting asked for to do. And this can be in quite different areas. It can be in software development; it can be on installation out in the field. There are many different areas where headcount is missing.


[00:01:50.710] – Jon Slowe

Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to exploring these with our guests, so let's say hello to them.


[00:01:58.310] – Sandra Trittin

Yes, so, the first one, Leon Trippel, the initiator and co-lead of Ohne Hände keine Wende.


[00:02:04.310] – Leon Trippel

Leon Triple. I'm one of the initiators, the co-lead of which basically translates to no hands, no transition. Works better in German, actually. But our main effort is to actually get more people into the installation of solar heat pumps. And the big problem we are addressing is that a lot of parts of the installation process can be overtaken by specially qualified people and not broadly qualified experts. And that's, for us, like a good entry point for career changes, for example, and we try to give them an easy access to the energy industry.


[00:02:54.950] – Jon Slowe

Thanks, Leon. We'll come back to your experiences shortly. Our second guest is Charmaine Coutinho head of client training at LCP Delta. Hello, Charmaine.


[00:03:03.810] – Charmaine Coutinho

Hi, Jon. Hi. Yes, as Jon said. head at our external client training services and education at LCP Delta.


[00:03:11.010] – Jon Slowe

So, you're really putting skills and human capital development to work then, Charmaine?


[00:03:17.130] – Charmaine Coutinho

Yeah, I mean, the main thing I think for me is around seeing how the energy sector, as Sandra said, skills, there's a skill, not enough people to work in the Ng transition, how we can help people with that. So that might be within the energy sector in terms of new teams that are rapidly growing, but it might also be with people who are out of the Energy sector who are looking to see how they can assist. In the Energy transition, whether that's finance, whether that's accountants, whether that's sporting industry to give them a really good kind of understanding of the context of the energy systems change. So, yeah, I keep on banging about energy systems and systems thinking till I'm kind of blue in the face, really.


[00:03:51.050] – Jon Slowe

Yeah, well, needing to know how all the different dots join together.


[00:03:54.090] – Charmaine Coutinho



[00:03:55.370] – Jon Slowe

And our third guest is Phil Beach, who's CEO at Energy and Utility Skills in the UK. Hello, Phil.


[00:04:02.490] – Phil Beach

Hi there. Great to be here. And as you say, Energy and Utility Skills is an organisation that is specifically focused on working with industry to identify and address the skills challenges in power, gas, water, and energy from waste companies. So very much at the heart of conversations around identifying and creating solutions for the skills and workforce challenges around net zero and wider green initiatives.


[00:04:30.510] – Jon Slowe

And Phil, would you characterise that as hard skills, soft skills, engineering, data science, behavioural science?


[00:04:38.810] – Phil Beach

It would be all of those. What I would say, though, is that we are relatively narrow in focusing on technical competencies and safety critical roles. But in terms of the skills, we're looking for, it's all of the ones that you mentioned. Because ultimately, what employers are looking for is competence. And competence is effectively a combination of both hard and soft skills and Its competence that we talk a lot about in industry.


[00:05:07.730] – Jon Slowe

Thanks, Phil. So, first broad question. To what degree are skills and expertise an issue? And is that specific to the energy transition or part of the wider skills shortage we see across much of Europe in lots of different types of jobs? Leon, maybe you'd like to go first with your focus on heat pump and solar installations. I'm sure it is an issue, but how big an issue, how pressing an issue in Germany is that at the moment? Leon?


[00:05:43.190] – Leon Trippel

We've got an issue with labour shortage in general, but, yeah, there are special fields, especially right now with new legislation, got quite a bigger issue. And that's, for example, in the field of solar heat pump, because, like, nowadays, it always comes together, especially if you're looking at a residential sector and dependent on the sources, we are looking at a shortage of like 300 to 500,000 people in the next ten years. So that's quite an issue. You can compare it also, like on the health sector, there's a big issue, but if we are looking at a technical field, so this is actually the biggest shortage we're having right now in Germany.


[00:06:29.140] – Sandra Trittin

But then I think the skills are, let's say, quite different. Right? Because for solar installation, you need someone to put them on the roof, and an electrician, I assume, to connect it. Whereas on a heat pump, you also need someone who's familiar with the watering system, et cetera.


[00:06:46.530] – Leon Trippel

According to different studies and also investigations. Different partners of us also investigated it. For example, with the German Federal Agency for Deep Innovation. And if you're looking at solar and tea pump, especially on the solar side, you can do like 80 90% of all steps necessary for installation by people who are actually not full electricians or like full electricians’ accordance to our German educational systems. Because there's for sure a critical part of this installation process. But especially on the PV side, for example, as you said, putting the solar panels on the roof, that's a part that can be overtaken by a lot of different people who just getting a couple of weeks training and they are in theory fit for this field. I think the other part is like to have a formal degree in this field, which is like the other side and also in the heat pump sector. I would say for example, as I said in this study, in this field with the invasion agency, they basically say that like 70% of the installation process can also be overtaken by, for example, treatment changes who don't have a formal degree in this field, but who are especially trained for this installation process.


For sure, to reach this percentage, you have to have a certain degree of standardisation of specialisation of your single employees. So that's the basis. The gap is huge. But I think we have a way to solve this problem, but not by only employing like fully formal qualified people.


[00:09:00.980] – Jon Slowe

Is that Leon, are people doing that in companies doing that in Germany at the moment? Or would you say companies are trying to still recruit people with all of the skills to do the whole job? Or are companies starting to break it down like you described and think actually we can upskill people with a few weeks of training to do the majority of the work and just bring in those high quality, harder skills? The last bit, I would say it.


[00:09:25.740] – Leon Trippel

Depends on the size of the company. So, for sure a smaller like Craftsman company has not liked capacity to look into installation process that deep because yes, in average we're talking about ten people in such companies. But some of our partners, partners of the initiative, like they're having 500 installers in one company. So that's a point where you are talking about the industrialised installation process and that's for sure. Not only that's, also taken place in the mid-size companies. They starting to realise, okay, the formal apprenticeship system is not delivering. Not nice to say, but it's hard to get those people we are needing for climate action. We have to start now. And it needs three years to train people and maybe needs even two more years until they're really experts on that field. And as said, Phil, if we're taking a look at people from similar industry who are maybe already trained on the technical level, not especially for that field, but they have a competency set which we can train them, especially for this technology, if the base knowledge is there. And I think that's the crucial factor that we can take. People from similar industries, like, for example, automotive is one industry which is, let's say, not growing in the next years.


And also, there is a big sector of labour, which is quite critical if we're talking about jobs where you're having dead ends and we try to get those people out of those dead ends into the easier parts of the installation process and giving them like a modular way of upskilling them and qualification over time.


[00:11:40.370] – Jon Slowe

So, getting quite creative then, Leon, with how companies are tackling the problem and not just going down the traditional training routes, but really interesting phil, does that chime with what you are seeing in the UK?


[00:11:56.060] – Phil Beach

Yeah, very much. I think to put it into context, skills and workforce challenges are strategic in nature. Before even starting to talk about net zero and green jobs. As an energy and utility skills organisation, we calculated that because of a number of factors like demographics, we know that 20% of the UK workforce retires this decade in our sector, and that demographically, we're in a bit of a trough in terms of new entrants into our sector and a number of other factors combined. To say that before net zero targets were introduced, we needed to fill 250,000 roles across energy utility industries. And now in the UK, we see a real push towards net zero, where we need to increase low carbon electricity generation by around 50%. We're talking about installing charge points for around 10 million electric vehicles. More recently, the British Energy Security Strategy sees the creation of a new nuclear sector and the fivefold increase in solar generation. All of that together means that there is a strategic challenge around workforce and skills.


And as I say at the start that is not just an energy and utility challenge. 70% of those skills are needed by many other industries too, not least the construction industry that are wrestling with national infrastructure programmes, as well as the net zero challenges that we face. So, all that Leon has talked about absolutely chimes with what we're seeing in the UK. And I think the challenge is acute and requires, I think, collective engagement and action, not just across power and networks, but across sectors, because the challenges are acute across a number of sectors and a number of industries.


[00:13:47.220] – Sandra Trittin

And what is your experience based on this Charmaine? What are the main requests that you get for training in which areas or on specific topics at the moment?


[00:13:59.570] – Charmaine Coutinho

It's really interesting because I think everything that guys have said about the challenge being kind of cross sector, it kind of interlinks across net zero and then beyond. I think this is going to answer your question, Sandra, but maybe not in a direct way. So, it's all part of a mood to kind of change the way we do work. So, the net zero is not just about having new jobs which are green, it's about greening the jobs that we already have. So, for many people the kind of skill set might be entirely new job role. So that might be a heat pump installer, so it's not a new job role but a massive expansion of existing job roles or new job roles but actually for a larger portion, I think I can't remember who it was but there's been quite a lot of studies in the last year being published. It's about people's existing roles shifting to have a greater component which speaks to net zero or sustainability or the energy transition. So actually, what we see a lot of desire or interest in is for how can I slightly upskill my team to do their jobs that they need to do now, but actually in a way that's future proofing those jobs for 510 15 years’ time.


So that might be a finance team that needs to understand about how energy systems work because they're going to need to expand their work with that will incorporate energy systems or the company that they're working for is getting bigger. But actually, when we kind of come back to the energy sector and the work we see there, it's actually about the key new things that are going to come and face challenges for that sector which for us at the moment is around flexibility. And some of these things have been very the preserve of specialist knowledge. So very isolated and very kind of almost in a little black box that not many people know about. But as everyone needs to understand about the energy transition then all of these little black boxes need to be opened up a bit for people to have a general understanding. So yeah, upskilling really sorry Jon.


[00:15:51.440] – Jon Slowe

So, if you take that virtual power plant flexibility concept, I think that it’s that the sort of thing you mean. Charmaine that was a real niche specialist, a tiny part of the energy sector and yet when we have millions of heat pumps, batteries, charge points in homes, that's going to be mainstream and all of much wider. Part of the energy sector is going to need to be an expert on virtual power plants.


[00:16:17.090] – Charmaine Coutinho

My barometer for this is generally my in laws. They are subscribed to an energy supplier who've just started introducing residential demand slide response activities. So monetising people to turn off their power usage at certain time, five years ago they would have not been talking about that. And I usually take that as a barometer for what things that other people in sector need to know about. So how close it is to impacting the end customer my in laws as the result of that conversation.


[00:16:51.650] – Sandra Trittin

But I think it's a good point also in let's say on one side, everyone should understand some kind of concepts, right? And should have an idea around them. But for the application afterwards, we need to make it as easy and as smooth as possible, right? So that you could even work around that without having the knowledge. But for sure, it's always better, right, to fully understand what's going up in the background.


[00:17:16.650] – Charmaine Coutinho

Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that people have talked about a little bit is how do we transition people from traditional industries into the energy transitions? Looking at just energy, but actually there's loads of transferable skills which just need a little bit of tweaking to make that workforce, which are facing what is quite an existential crisis of their own kind of working life and actually helping them to apply their skills to the future, really.


[00:17:45.610] – Jon Slowe

Leon and Phil, the numbers that you were talking about as you were talking earlier have left me a little depressed in that those are such huge numbers, such a big challenge. So, yeah, can you both try and cheer me up a bit or talk about how you think we can meet those talk a bit more about how we can meet those challenges? Because, yeah, without that, we won't get to our energy transition, our net zero goals. Who wants to have a go? Cheering me up first.


[00:18:19.820] – Phil Beach

I can't guarantee to cheer you up, Jon, but I think this is glass half full, glass half empty territory. Because, of course, what I would say is there are 250,000 and growing fantastic roles to be part of the solution to the climate emergency. So, I think that's wholly positive. Back to Charmaine's point about what people are talking about and about barometers.


If you speak to young people today, about what interest them, they want jobs with a purpose, and you couldn't get a better purpose than solving the current climate emergency that they all care so passionate about. So, I'm actually quite excited about filling those roles. The challenge for us, I think, is to provide the courses and the opportunities and the pathways to get people into those roles. And that is a mixture, I think we've heard already, of the need to upskill and reskill the existing workforce. And that's important for two reasons. Firstly, as Leon said, we need to get on with this, so we need to transition people from higher carbon sectors to low carbon sectors and get them working. But equally importantly, we do that because you're training the trainers, because as you generate apprenticeships in these new technologies, you need someone already there to teach the newcomers how to do this. So, it's a really exciting thing. But what I would say, Jon, is that whilst that is a massive opportunity, I think certainly from a UK perspective, UK government and industry, the fact of the matter is, this is a strategic challenge, and it needs addressing at a strategic level.


Those numbers are scary at face value, and it needs a whole of system approach to fixing it. We won't get to do this by muddling through using existing processes.


[00:19:58.530] – Jon Slowe

And to what degree do we have of that strategic approach in the UK, Phil? Are we almost there? Getting there a long way to go.


[00:20:06.630] – Phil Beach

I think if you'd have asked me ahead of COP 26, I might have been a little pessimistic. But one of the encouraging things that happened post Glasgow was that in the UK, the government has established the Green Jobs Delivery Group, which for UK government is, I think, a really good initiative, because it does bring together, if not for the first time, then certainly you could count on probably the fingers of one hand how often it's happened. Where four government departments at ministerial level are engaged with industry directly to identify and address the skilled challenges facing the UK to deliver its key initiatives as energy utilities. Because we sit on that group and the group has basically broken down by sectors where we need to be addressing forensic and laser focus on the skills challenges. And we're working really hard across government departments and industry to develop solutions to address some of those challenges. So, I think encouragingly, over the last year, we've seen real focus across government and a real appetite to engage with industry to try and solve some of these workforce and skills challenges.


[00:21:11.790] – Sandra Trittin

And based on that, Leon, what could you tell us to cheer us a little bit up or giving us a bit more perspective?


[00:21:21.290] – Leon Trippel

It's interesting because partially it's the same like in Germany. We also get a lot of ambitions, like on the federal level to boost this upskilling, reskilling general skilling challenge. But I would say they're like different parts involved because for sure we can talk a lot about skills challenge on a federal level. But as I said, we need this ambition also in the industry because in the end, if we really want to solve this upskilling challenge, then it only works with the industry actors because you just using the old pathways, which are for sure valuable. Our German apprenticeship system is well-known in the world and it's good, it has a high quality, but as you said, Jon, sorry, Phil, we need new pathways. And what we are doing, for example, is, let's say we're copying, but we are mirroring basically the classical apprenticeship in our modular system. So, in the end, we try to get people to the same degree, but not through like a three and a half years programme, but through six modules of four to six months. And that's how you are giving people an easier entrance into a new job or similar field of training.


And I think that's the main factor that we are really looking down to skills and we have to look at skills and not degrees, and that's really crucial in every field, I would say.


[00:23:20.860] – Jon Slowe

And how far down that road are you, Leon? I guess a similar question to ask Phil, are you at the beginning of that journey? Halfway through? Is that journey well underway?


[00:23:32.470] – Leon Trippel

Depends on what you're looking. So, on a conceptual level, I think we basically emerge beginning of this year, so nowadays we have 20 industry partners. We get a lot of support also from the federal level, and we created concept which is already validated in its components in different other fields. So, the instruments we are using are not new and already outset by the legislation. And the crucial factor is now how we get that into basically the industry and how do we scale that. Because for sure, if you're looking, for example, at manufacturers, they're used to product trainings and things like that, but they not used to real education. And we are really moving from training to education with this kind of modular qualification approach we are using. And I think that's also where we also need to train people because as you said, Phil, we need trainers on the other side who are able to train those new people, those career changers. And you get like, from you can chase this argumentation down to okay, we have to do everything like new. But at certain point, you just have to say, okay, we have to start with this and start with what's there and have to fix the other part long sky scaling. Because for the amount of people we need to qualify, there is no infrastructure ready to do this. So, it's a moonshot mission. And yeah, basically what keeps me positive is that you're running in an open door, so basically you don't have to knock anymore. That's a good thing because everybody knows it's a big challenge and if we don't act on this together, we're going to have a big problem in ten years because then basically we're not able to reach any climate goals and we have to start now.


[00:25:53.520] – Jon Slowe

It reminds me of talking to a friend that works in one of the big management consultancies and they get new intakes, new graduates every year. And the bit of the business that everyone wants to work in is energy. Now that's the exciting part, so that's the open door. You talked about Leon and Phil, I guess that's what you mentioned as well.


[00:26:15.720] – Phil Beach

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, much of what Leon says absolutely chimes with my experience. We work with big industry, and they all talk about micro credentialing or modular approaches to training. Because having a bite sized approach to training, particularly reskilling, means that there's less time away from work and productivity doesn't take a massive hit. So, I think that's important. I would just make one slightly aligned point though, in terms of this conversation around skills. And I think there's a good example around the UK experience around heat pumps where you'll know that the government target for heat pump installation is 600,000 a year by 2028. It's not that long away. Interestingly, we look back at 2022, where less than 70,000 were fitted across the country and that's a mix of new build and retrofit. So, we're about 10% of the target and you could say that that's because there aren't enough skilled people to fit it, but I think you could equally argue, and probably more strongly argue, but the demand isn't there. So, I think what you find talking to industry is that industry won't invest in upskilling and reskilling people for these new technologies unless there's an absolute demand for them, which I think is the point.


[00:27:29.780] – Phil Beach

That skill sits in a broader landscape where you need both policy certainty to secure investment, but also sufficient incentivization and changes in behaviours such that these things gain traction and therefore generate the incentivization of industry to invest in the training. So, I think skills, as ever, needs to be sat within a wider conversation.


[00:27:52.890] – Jon Slowe

I think that getting the demand and the supply going in parallel, it's a really good point. Charmaine when it comes…


[00:28:00.970] – Leon Trippel

To big point in Germany as well. So that's what we experienced in last month as well, because beginning of the year skills were the biggest thing but then you maybe recognise we had quite some discussions about these, let's say heat pump law. It's not named by that, but yeah, it's about heat pumps. All this discussion ended up in decrease of demand and we got a lot of new actors on the market which are basically start scale ups, want to scale fast and what happens if demand is decreasing in the scaling phase? It also brings along a lot of problems with them. And for sure, they want to upskill they want to skill people in general, like reskill every form of skilling people. But if the demand isn't there and if there's an insecurity at the market. Like all these ambitions are nice, but if you don't have the money to pay the people because you don't have the installation to do on the other side it's all like a nice picture, but you can't realise it.


[00:29:28.810] – Jon Slowe

The two need to go hand in hand. Charmaine, do you see that with topics like flexibility or that niche topic of virtual power plant, that's going to become a much bigger topic in terms of interest from the sector and that balance of the opportunities in the market for things like virtual power plants and people wanting to be upskilled in it.


[00:29:53.390] – Charmaine Coutinho

Yeah, I think the advantage that we have in the training that we offer, which is very much focused on kind of education rather than training, so what it does is gives people a little bit more of an understanding in a relatively short space of time, so maybe over a couple of days or a day. So, the commitment to doing that is almost not too much further ahead of just saying, oh, I'm a bit interested in this topic, and I think it could be relevant for where our organisation wants to go in the next few months, years, decades. And so, it's quite kind of, I suppose, low risk, which sounds a bit strange. And actually, it's so related to the kind of convergence that you talked about right at the beginning of energy with other places that actually it ends up being something that people have kind of a deep curiosity about, rather than it being kind of, I need to do this for my job role. On the flip side, I think personally, I think people do need to do that, but it kind of makes me think of this. We talked a little bit about bite size, education, and interest.


[00:30:58.240] – Charmaine Coutinho

There's so much information that you can get just on the Internet. You can go and solve these things by googling them for a period of time. But I think what is interesting, and I think it comes up in politics as well, is actually getting an expert input, which is kind of fact based, not opinion based. And I think that's the kind of differentiation when it comes to how and what you choose to train your team on is making sure that it's correct and it's appropriate, it's independence balance, rather than it being something which and that quality of it rather than it being something that's been passed on from random sources on Google.


[00:31:37.150] – Jon Slowe

Well, I am feeling more cheered up, thanks to the three of you. So, it still feels like a huge challenge, but I think almost reframing. Partly it's about reframing how we think about skills development. And it's not having done a three-year course, it's taking it into those bite size chunks, focusing on education and finding pathways to make this more accessible for more people. And it's a sector people want to work in and make a difference. Back to what you said at the beginning, Phil. People want jobs for the purpose and what better purpose? So, let's bring up the talking new energy crystal ball now, and I'm going to get set the dial this week to 2030. And my question to each of you relates to today and 2030. I want you each to rate out of five the degree to which skills and expertise is holding back the transition today and the degree to which it will be holding back the transition in 2030. So, let's say five out of five means there's no skills challenge at all. We have all the skills we need and one out of five means there's a huge skills challenge.


[00:32:57.970] – Jon Slowe

So where are we today out of five and what's your prediction for where we'll be out of 2030? Out of five. And let's go. Phil? Charmaine? Leon?


[00:33:09.120] – Phil Beach

I suspect one could talk for a long time on this one, Jon. I have to say, given climate, my crystal ball is slightly hazier than it was probably yesterday. I think I would score as a one out of five in both areas. And I think that's because the work that I've been doing over the last year with government and industry. The consistent theme that comes out of the conversations, and it's come up in this discussion today, is that you have to have long term policy certainty. Have to, because without long term policy certainty, you won't get investors, and without investors, you won't get the skills investment that you need to support those ambitions. So, I think the question fundamentally is how confident are we that there is a clear direction of travel and a pathway to net zero that successive governments in whichever country we are, are signed up to? Because without that, it's extraordinarily difficult. I think the second part of that question is the degree to which, as a country, we are going to be agile, innovative, and bold enough to address some of the skills challenges. I'll draw a little example to build on that in the UK, there are about 420,000 electricians, of which about 80,000 retire this decade. Because of the demographics I talked about earlier, there aren't enough electricians and there aren't enough places on programmes to create enough electricians to do what we need to do today, let alone roll out 10 million electric vehicle charge points that you need to be a qualified electrician to do so. The UK has a choice of either delaying its ambitions on net zero or finding a solution around limited scope qualifications to do some of the subsets that we need around things like electric vehicle charge point installation or some of the low carbon tech installation that we heard about earlier on in the programme. Because, as I said earlier on, if we continue just to think that we can use the current modalities mechanisms and structures that we have at the moment, the volume and challenge is too great to make that work. We need to be more agile, flexible, and innovative in our thinking about how we match supply and demand and generate the competencies in an agile way.


[00:35:20.820] – Jon Slowe

Okay. Thanks, Phil. Sounds like you got a busy seven years between now and 2030. Charmaine?


[00:35:28.890] – Charmaine Coutinho

I would agree with the one at the moment. I think it would have been one before yesterday, but maybe my crystal ball is a bit more pre-effective than yours, Jon. And then in 2030, I don't know, I find it really difficult. So, all the stuff that Phil said in terms of that kind of capacity and the supply demand curve when you just look at skills is just frankly quite overwhelming. I would like to say that actually coming out all the generations that coming out of university and school actually provide a lot of even just the kind of way people approach the world of work. Kind of gives me a bit of hope that my edge towards me being more of a three or a four, and that people naturally look at creative solutions because actually that's the generational change. But that doesn't stop everyone else who's already working in the sector to try and shimmy that along a I know, ask me five years.


[00:36:24.730] – Jon Slowe

Thanks, Charmaine. Leon?


[00:36:28.190] – Leon Trippel

For sure, I would also agree with one today. So, yeah, the challenge is huge, I think. Nothing to add on this side. I would pick another perspective on what is crucial, maybe, and I would frame it as a cultural change over time. We need to take, and I think it's crucial that if we want to have a better number in 2030, we have to look at, like, solar heat pump the way we are looking at cars. Like, oh, we have been looking at cars in Germany, they last for 30 years. If we're reaching a point where we have a high identification with those products, I think the problem won't be that big. But I think in 2030 we haven't reached that point to a degree of that we say, okay, we can name it as five, it's everything done. I would rather pick three or four, depending on how fast the change will go on next use. And that's something it's hard to pick because I think on our side, we can do a lot on the installation side and maybe we can fix this in the next six years, but I think we will still have four to unluckily hope, but hopefully not a three.


[00:38:00.810] – Jon Slowe

Thanks, Leon. Well, thanks to all three of you. I'm so glad we picked this topic to talk about today, because I want to say it's overlooked because the three of you are working in this topic day to day, and there's a huge amount of work going on. But it's easy, I think, to overlook this topic and from what the three of you have talked about, unless we get this right. And I'm really encouraged by what you've described, but there's still a huge amount to do as you've all described. Unless we get that right, then we can get everything else in place, but we won't meet our goals unless we have the skills and the workforce there, so, thanks, Charmaine. Thanks, Phil. Thanks, Leon. And thanks always to everyone listening. We hope that gave you some interesting perspectives and hopefully something to take back to your jobs, your roles and your workday today in the energy transition and think about what you can do to help us get the skills and capabilities in place to hit our net zero challenges. Thanks very much for listening and look forward to welcoming you back next week.


[00:39:12.660] – Jon Slowe



[00:39:13.890] – Sandra Trittin

Thanks for tuning in. We are excited to bring you captivating conversations from the leading edge of Europe's energy transition. If you've got suggestions for topics or guests for future episodes, please let us know.


[00:39:25.810] – Jon Slowe

And if you're enjoying the podcast, then please do rate it and share it with colleagues. For show notes, transcripts and more, please visit www.lcpdelta.com.

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